The African Statesman speaks
Obasanjo sits on the "Africa Progress Panel". According to his remarks cited here, his beliefs on homosexuality do not sound progressive. Should this apparently distinguished panel have people sitting on it that hold a 13th century perspective on sexuality? Kofi Annan has his work cut out...
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The following extract is from Love in the dock, by Jon Henley, Xan Rice in Nairobi and David Smith in Johannesburg, The Guardian, Saturday 22 May 2010
The underlying reasons for what amounts, almost, to continent-wide homophobia are many and complex but boil down, says Blessing-Miles Tendi, a Zimbabwean-born researcher in African politics at University of Oxford, to three: enduring myths about African culture (unhappily combined with the existence of colonial-era legislation); the power and influence of religion; and the black male's conception of masculinity.
Follow the link
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/may/22/malawian-gay-couple-jailed-14-years
JG
Why is it that in Europe it is a crime for me to fuck my sister and mother? Even when we are all adults and we are happy to have sex? Consenting adults, no?
Why is it a crime for me to take my own life? It is my life and I wish to end it. No?
Why is using heroine a crime? It's my life and my body.
Homosexuality is a lifestyle, less than 1% of gay people can truely claim a genetic/biological propulsion to it, the rest get into it the way you get into using drugs or swinging, as a lifestyle choice. You can be gay if you want, but don't bother societies who say do not promote this lifestyle choice in our backyard because our children our impressionable.
Poland recently banned teletubbies because it openly promotes homosexuality through one of its characters. Russia, China, these are non-religious countries and they do will not put up with promoting of this lifestyle, this has nothing to do with religion. The UK has an abnormally large percentage of gay people, and the numbers are rising exponentially, one day, you will wake up and find that all your men are gay, and the women will have to find men elsewhere for breeding, isn't that a greater threat to your tiny island than CO2 emmissions? No wonder the BNP was getting popular.
Be gay if you won't, stop bothering other countries.
By the way, I think lesbians are HOT!
dare I say, I had fun reading the comments?
Funny the reasoning of human beings that abound..
I suppose there's no such thing as morality these days, No?
I'd end here.
i am not homphobic but i do not know that i would say i am FOR the gays but i think it is wrong, the prosecution n persection.
i will say ppl r becoming obsessed with being acceptant of almost everything all in the name of........? what?
It definitely is a life style choice. And a very fashionable one at that. The rate at which homosexuals and bisexuals are crawling out of the closet here in the Uk is alarming.
But they are too intellectual to see the danger of promoting this lifestyle choice. In fact they want (if possible) to erase the gender and sexuality lines) so basically we can weave in and out of any relationship with a man, woman, animal or even a child (i suspect in the not too distant future paedophiles will have rights in UK & Europe).
Why they are so desperate to spread this message to Africa is one to ponder about.
Baba Jeremy,
I respect a lot of your opinions and life ideologies but on this gay issue, please leave us alone.
We are Africans. We wish to live in our society as we deem fit. We do not interfere with the laws of the UK land.
We also like and cherish our red meat so please leave that one alone too.
For those two issues, let us agree to disagree and forgo any further discussion. For almost everything else, we see eye to eye.
Baba: you say "We are Africans." I'm curious to know by what power you claim to be able to speak on behalf of a billion people, tens of millions of whom are gay... It sounds like delusions of grandeur to me.
1) 'we are africans' refers to the custodians of our morals, culture and society, those who make our laws. 140 million Nigerians cannot sit in congress, we elect people and those people try to reflect the will of the people, and I can assure you that on this gay issue, this is the general will of Africans.
2) Tens of millions of gay people in Africa? If we are talking about male gays, then again I can assure you that this number is bollocks. Black Africans, which is the issue here, not europeans in southern africa or arabs in the north, if you find up to 500,000 male gay people in black africa then I will swim the arctic ocean naked.
3) There are more than 10 million thieves in Africa, does that mean we should legalise theft? Can't you get it into your head - it is an issue of the general will vs the personal will. Gays have existed in africa for millenia, it is not your invention, they have gone about their business with little problem, but now it seems you think the lifestyle should be celebrated, promoted and given centre stage, that's the problem, and now the general will is fighting back, you have actually caused african gays more harm than good.
4) There are more important human rights issues, e.g. Lithuania, an EU country recently passed a law essentially discriminating agaisnt a third of it population because they are ethnic russians, outlawed their language and denied them citizenship. Same thing in latvia, and estonia. General will!
5) The fact of the matter is that, like cheese, europeans men are more likely to find sucking cock pleasing while a typical black african isn't. Deal with it. I am not saying you shouldn't suck cock, or that it is wrong, or that we are right, all we are saying is: leave us the fuck alone, we don't want it for ourselves or our kids, simple.
6) Progress is relative. And to prove it, I have demonstrated that your society still believes there are boundaries that cannot be crossed just yet, maybe later, but not right now: In Europe, incest is still against the law, even when both parties are consenting adults, why? Euthanasia is still a crime, why? Class a drugs are still illegal in most countries, hell even full gay marriage has only been accepted in 3 countries, so what are you waiting for?
7) Contrary to your sensational headlines, there are gay people who go about their business without any issues, in the clubs in abuja you will notice a large lesbian community, and most people I know do know at least 1 gay guy, I know one myself and he is my friend. But we don't appreciate the fact that you see things from your perspective only, you do not have a monopoly on thought.
8) I am an atheist so this has nothing to do with religion. I also like lesbians and I know most guys do, so it is not about being open minded, it is about understanding and appreciating other societies point of view, continuing to insist that black african societies, or chinese societies or arab societies accept without questioning your point of view is insulting and especially rude if we are your host.
9) There are more established homophobic people in Europe than there are in Africa, fact. Most africans have never seen two men kiss, most have never even heard of it, so it is not something that has ever crossed their mind. But we know the views of the European Right on this matter, so who is intolerant now eh?
Jeremy, you say "tens of millions"? I guess there are research numbers that support that? I guess if another statesman say Kofi Anan agrees that homosexuals should be allowed to propagate their lifestyle, you will then accept that he can speak for a billion Africans?
1. This is a purely aspirational statement. I do share the aspiration that at some point, Nigerians will actually have the opportunity to elect people who will represent them and sit in the National Assembly. The question of general will is not as simple as you think however. The majority of people in many western countries believe in capital punishment and would vote for it if given the chance in a referendum. Capital punishment is in that respect, indicative of 'the general will'. However, most Western countries (and many States in the US) do not sanction it. Now why do you think that is?
2 (and 7). There is no conclusive statistic on the percentage of any human population that is gay. The figure of 10% has been discredited, but from the research it does look like between 2 and 7% is more realistic. Let's be ultra conservative however and say 1% and assume Africa has a population of 1 billion and "black Africa" as you call it a population of say 700 million. 1% of 700 million is still 7 million. Which bit of the Arctic is your starting point?
You probably know more than one man who sleeps with men in Abuja. There are gay scenes in all Nigerian cities, just as there are anywhere else in the world. What is really happening is that Africans (such as OBJ) are reacting to a legislative or what I would call an 'inscriptive' approach. Historically, there was often a surprising amount of tolerance to MSM in Nigeria, as there was a large degree of religious tolerance. Its when things are put on the agenda as explicit legal issues that this "dont speak dont tell' version of tolerance is challenged. In some respects, I'd imagine being gay (in the sense of Men Sleeping with Men) in Nigeria is a lot easier than being gay in the West. You can carry on doing what you do without having to go through the whole rigmarole of 'coming out'. However, it does mean that your life is structured around keeping a secret, which must be burdensome.
3. You are putting words into my mouth. The point about OBJ being anti progressive is a legal one. One can perfectly well insist on a universal human rights framework for Nigeria that includes sexuality, without insisting that one also import western notions of gay identity in at the same time. This distinction seems to be invisible to many, including yourself.
4. Human rights are human rights. For the couple in Malawi sentenced to x years of hard labour, I don't think they would agree. Nor would the families of those in Iran who are hanged for their sexuality. I don't see the value in prioritising human rights
5. You no more and no better represent "black Africa" than I do.
6. Here we agree in part at least. Quite why Africa remains the poorest part of the world after so much effort from inside and out is a complex question. Societies evolve and mores evolve and the way people think evolve. But all this takes place a lot more slowly where there is a kleptocratic elite maintaining/profiting from a resource curse, maintaining a system where the vast majority do not have access to quality education and healthcare. The level of thinking remains stuck in the present tense, in the material and in the ego. This is where we are right now in Nigeria, truth be told. Reactive beliefs on the legal status of homosexuality are entirely of a piece with this..
8. All societies have great internal complexity. Your attempt to rely on a monolithic "black Africa" construct is naive.
9. This may have been true, but homophobia is pretty rampant (and extreme) in Africa too. The reason why it is perhaps more visible in the West goes back to the gay cultural identity vs MSM issue raised above. The more men who switch from the down low to the visible/cultural, the more homophobia will rise. It is precisely this lever/pivot that is being manifest by OBJ.
1. This is a purely aspirational statement. I do share the aspiration that at some point, Nigerians will actually have the opportunity to elect people who will represent them and sit in the National Assembly. The question of general will is not as simple as you think however. The majority of people in many western countries believe in capital punishment and would vote for it if given the chance in a referendum. Capital punishment is in that respect, indicative of 'the general will'. However, most Western countries (and many States in the US) do not sanction it. Now why do you think that is?
2 (and 7). There is no conclusive statistic on the percentage of any human population that is gay. The figure of 10% has been discredited, but from the research it does look like between 2 and 7% is more realistic. Let's be ultra conservative however and say 1% and assume Africa has a population of 1 billion and "black Africa" as you call it a population of say 700 million. 1% of 700 million is still 7 million. Which bit of the Arctic is your starting point?
You probably know more than one man who sleeps with men in Abuja. There are gay scenes in all Nigerian cities, just as there are anywhere else in the world. What is really happening is that Africans (such as OBJ) are reacting to a legislative or what I would call an 'inscriptive' approach. Historically, there was often a surprising amount of tolerance to MSM in Nigeria, as there was a large degree of religious tolerance. Its when things are put on the agenda as explicit legal issues that this "dont speak dont tell' version of tolerance is challenged. In some respects, I'd imagine being gay (in the sense of Men Sleeping with Men) in Nigeria is a lot easier than being gay in the West. You can carry on doing what you do without having to go through the whole rigmarole of 'coming out'. However, it does mean that your life is structured around keeping a secret, which must be burdensome.
3. You are putting words into my mouth. The point about OBJ being anti progressive is a legal one. One can perfectly well insist on a universal human rights framework for Nigeria that includes sexuality, without insisting that one also import western notions of gay identity in at the same time. This distinction seems to be invisible to many, including yourself.
4. Human rights are human rights. For the couple in Malawi sentenced to x years of hard labour, I don't think they would agree. Nor would the families of those in Iran who are hanged for their sexuality. I don't see the value in prioritising human rights
5. You no more and no better represent "black Africa" than I do.
6. Here we agree in part at least. Quite why Africa remains the poorest part of the world after so much effort from inside and out is a complex question. Societies evolve and mores evolve and the way people think evolve. But all this takes place a lot more slowly where there is a kleptocratic elite maintaining/profiting from a resource curse, maintaining a system where the vast majority do not have access to quality education and healthcare. The level of thinking remains stuck in the present tense, in the material and in the ego. This is where we are right now in Nigeria, truth be told. Reactive beliefs on the legal status of homosexuality are entirely of a piece with this..
8. All societies have great internal complexity. Your attempt to rely on a monolithic "black Africa" construct is naive.
9. This may have been true, but homophobia is pretty rampant (and extreme) in Africa too. The reason why it is perhaps more visible in the West goes back to the gay cultural identity vs MSM issue raised above. The more men who switch from the down low to the visible/cultural, the more homophobia will rise. It is precisely this lever/pivot that is being manifest by OBJ.
Funny, if I love marriage so much i decide to marry twice, in the UK, I commit bigamy.Six years in jail! Amongst consenting adults faa! To them, it must always be ratio one to one. So intolerant!
Africans are more liberal. I can marry as many as I am committed to, as long as they are consenting and are of opposite sex. Is that not fair?
Normality is a sociological concept.To seek to impose your views on another society is parochial. To say the least.
In response to Joy,
From my limited understanding, within the Nigerian context it is only the male who is allowed to acquire multiple partners.
I don't believe this Nigeria of yours is as liberal as you would like us to think.
@Jeremy
Obasanjo's views are substantially no different from that of most of the (American) Republican Party, including its leadership, American fundamental Christians, the Catholic Church and a large swathe of the so-called "civilized" world.
@ JG
Please homophobia has nothing to do with "the black male's conception of masculinity" as there are just many (or even more) white homophobes as there are black. Is there any social problem these days that is not somehow blamed on "the black male's conception of masculinity"?!
'Universal Human Rights' my arse!
"Animal wan dash man human rights'
What is universal about something conceived, written, and sponsored by one continent? representatives of less than 1/6th of humanity? O'boy, there is no such thing as universal human rights.
And to make my case I shall cite a few examples.
1) The Conservative Party in the UK have proposed ditching the EU declaration on human rights, for a UK "bill of rights' because they disagrees with some of the things that pass as 'human rights', in Europe. Now that is people in Europe disagreeing over what constitutes universal human rights, and here you are telling me about universal human rights.
2) in Austria, Germany, and some other european countries, they do no recognize a basic human right which even people in my village do, that is - Freedom of speech. If in my village i can stand in the village square and say that i do not believe that the holocaust happened, people will just look at me and say, 'leave that yeye man, him don craze', but in Austria i will be tried and sentenced to jail, is this human rights? is it universal?
3) In the UK up until the law was challenged at the European court of human rights in 2006 i think it was, it was illegal to marry people from certain countries unless the State approved of it, so essentially, a girl who was in love with say a Brazilian, was not allowed to marry him, please tell me, what is crazier than that? You don't believe me? look it up here http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4894544.stm
4) Ever heard of a group called Fathers For Justice? I bet you have, they have been battling the UK legal system which discriminates against men and favours women in the issue of child custody. it does not accept a simple basic human rights principle that a child belongs as much to the mother as it does to the father. Again, human rights gone mad. In Nigeria, if you tell a man that he cannot see his children because of some yeye European view point, then you will see Oba.
5) Prostitution in a brothel is illegal in the UK, it makes me wonder where this your so called progressives are when matters like this arise. As has been brutally demonstrated yet again, this time by the so called 'crossbow cannibal', it is safer to allow prostitutes to operate in groups in a brothel, but the UK will not allow this basic common sense: My body belongs to me, and i can do with it as i please.
6) in some parts of the world, polygamy is not outlawed, because it is a simple issue, if 3 consenting adults wish to be in a union together: 2 men 1 woman, 2 women 1 man, 3 men, or 3 women. why in God's name will not not allow them? this is allowed in some parts of the world, why not in your country?
This is just to completely debunk your so called 'universal human rights', there is no such thing as that, if you want to force down everyone else's throat, the thinking of Europeans at least be polite to say so. Go on, say it, tell us that you believe that Europeans are superior therefore we must accept your point of view. Because even if you wont say it, your inability to appreciate other people's point of view (not asking you to accept it) betrays your narrow-mindedness. You drink the same Soma as most of your ilk, and it is a very smelly one indeed.
@ O'Mary
My point is, tolerance and intolerance is relative to where you are coming from. If Germany, you go to jail for doubting the genocide of the Jews... I can go on and on...
What each society views with revulsion may differ.
A quite convincing argument this,methinks..
http://www.theeastafrican.co.ke/opOrEd/comment/-/434750/924046/-/cahx9h/-/index.html
I am loving the majority of these comments.
I DO NOT support homosexuality and find it annoying that I am constantly labelled a Homophobe as though I am not entitled to an opinion on the matter. My not supporting it does not mean that I will ever go out carrying placards against it or attack any homosexuals I know. It is just not acceptable to me from a moral point of view. This does not mean that I cannot be friends with a person that is homo or bi-sexual.
I do not know why people want to forcibly change my opinion. You, Jeremy are of the opinion that Homosexuality is acceptable. Hurray for you! I am not going to try and change your mind so this whole propaganda regarding ensuring that every one else that does not share your opinion is blacklisted as being an unprogressive thinker is totally unfair.
Abeg, leave matter for Matthias. It is not by force.
Wow!!! oga jeremy, thank you for coming to enlighten us "backward" Africans with our archaic mentality.
Why can't you just leave us be.
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